Transubstantiation. Ignatius, Smyrnaeans 7.1 (c. 107 AD): "the eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins." Justin Martyr, First Apology 66 (c. 155 AD): the bread and cup are "the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." I'm not disputing those quotes. What I'm disputing is what they prove. Neither man is arguing in Aristotelian substance/accident categories. The word "transubstantiate" doesn't appear in a conciliar text until Lateran IV, Canon 1, 1215. Real presence belief is not the same claim as the Lateran IV metaphysical account. That distinction matters.
Praying to saints. My question isn't whether early Christians did it. My question is who authorized it. 1 Timothy 2:5 says there is "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." That's the apostolic text. Catacomb inscriptions are 2nd-3rd century. Post-apostolic by definition. Show me the authorization, not the practice.
Confession to priests. Tertullian is cited as a witness for Roman continuity. Tertullian left the Catholic church and died a Montanist, a movement Rome condemned as heresy. I'm not sure that's the witness I'd lead with.
Apostolic succession. Rome's own Catholic Encyclopedia on the Liber Pontificalis states the document was compiled "at the latest under Boniface II (530-2)" and that "a great many biographies of the predecessors of Anastasius II are full of errors and historically untenable." That's your encyclopedia. That's your admission.
Deuterocanonicals. Jerome, who produced the Vulgate you still use, wrote in his Preface to the Books of Samuel and Kings: "Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias... are not in the canon." He included them under pressure. His own judgment was against them.
I'm not making a Protestant argument. I reject the Reformation too - Luther kept Rome's product while rejecting the manufacturer. My standard is apostolic. "Older than 1517" is not the same as "authorized by the apostles."
I think it's quite ironic that they cite the vernacular scripture being used in service in 200 AD. Well yeah but the vernacular was Greek and Latin, but then it says "no" during the Reformation, well yeah because it had always been in Greek and Latin. Just too good.
Hey, thanks for that, brother! By the way, I saw the message you sent the other day, and I wanted to wait until I was at my computer to write a response, but I haven't gotten back to it yet. I'm sorry about that. I respond to every message, but sometimes it takes me longer than I'd like. LOL.
Transubstantiation. Ignatius, Smyrnaeans 7.1 (c. 107 AD): "the eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins." Justin Martyr, First Apology 66 (c. 155 AD): the bread and cup are "the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." I'm not disputing those quotes. What I'm disputing is what they prove. Neither man is arguing in Aristotelian substance/accident categories. The word "transubstantiate" doesn't appear in a conciliar text until Lateran IV, Canon 1, 1215. Real presence belief is not the same claim as the Lateran IV metaphysical account. That distinction matters.
Praying to saints. My question isn't whether early Christians did it. My question is who authorized it. 1 Timothy 2:5 says there is "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." That's the apostolic text. Catacomb inscriptions are 2nd-3rd century. Post-apostolic by definition. Show me the authorization, not the practice.
Confession to priests. Tertullian is cited as a witness for Roman continuity. Tertullian left the Catholic church and died a Montanist, a movement Rome condemned as heresy. I'm not sure that's the witness I'd lead with.
Apostolic succession. Rome's own Catholic Encyclopedia on the Liber Pontificalis states the document was compiled "at the latest under Boniface II (530-2)" and that "a great many biographies of the predecessors of Anastasius II are full of errors and historically untenable." That's your encyclopedia. That's your admission.
Deuterocanonicals. Jerome, who produced the Vulgate you still use, wrote in his Preface to the Books of Samuel and Kings: "Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias... are not in the canon." He included them under pressure. His own judgment was against them.
I'm not making a Protestant argument. I reject the Reformation too - Luther kept Rome's product while rejecting the manufacturer. My standard is apostolic. "Older than 1517" is not the same as "authorized by the apostles."
Here is what an actual Reference list looks like:
Ignatius, Smyrnaeans 7.1: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm
Justin Martyr, First Apology 66: https://www.logoslibrary.org/justin/apology1/66.html
Lateran IV, Canon 1 (1215): https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/fourth-lateran-council-1215-10584
Justin Martyr and transubstantiation: https://reformationchambers.com/2020/11/13/did-justin-martyr-teach-transubstantiation-in-apology-1-66/
Montanism/Tertullian: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Montanism
Liber Pontificalis, Catholic Encyclopedia: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09224a.htm
Jerome, Preface to Samuel and Kings: https://www.biblestudytools.com/history/early-church-fathers/post-nicene/vol-6-jerome/jerome/prefaces-books-vulgate-version-old-testament.html
Excellent summary and rebuttal
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed it. And thanks again for being a supporter of my work!
I think it's quite ironic that they cite the vernacular scripture being used in service in 200 AD. Well yeah but the vernacular was Greek and Latin, but then it says "no" during the Reformation, well yeah because it had always been in Greek and Latin. Just too good.
EXCELLENT! Great work! Adding this to my apologetics file. Thanks!
Thanks brother I’m glad you enjoyed it. That one really taxed me lol. I’m glad it was worth it
Love it! More great content from theforge.fm !
Hey, thanks for that, brother! By the way, I saw the message you sent the other day, and I wanted to wait until I was at my computer to write a response, but I haven't gotten back to it yet. I'm sorry about that. I respond to every message, but sometimes it takes me longer than I'd like. LOL.